This is our first interview installment with David Hayes from the Engraved Printing Co. We will be bringing this interview to you in three parts, as there are far too many fascinating tales and slices of wisdom to leave anything out. We hope you enjoy, have a laugh and gain some insight into the art and history of engraved printing from the only qualified Engraved Printer in Australia.
If you would like to contribute or think you’re up for answering some questions, drop us a line hello@theprintdirectory.com.au
Why have you come out to Australia, and how long have you been doing Engraved Printing for?
Since I left school at the age of 16, went straight into the trade. Back then it was a rare trade so there was no formal college or nothing that you could go too and learn from. So I went in and signed up for a 7-year apprenticeship.
How did you find out about it?
Because I was dyslexic I was a pretty bad kid at school…not bad, I had a very strange sense of humour. I was meant to go for a careers interview and turned up a week late. They said, “There are two jobs going a Lab Technician, or a job at a Printing Factory”. And I went “my uncle is a printer, he is the richest guy in the family! I’ll go for the printing one”. My Dad was a Milkman, and the guy who interviewed me was a Milkman for 15 years before he became an Engraved Printer. So we just chatted, not about printing and I got the job.
Were they Milkmen in the same suburb?
No, even different companies and everything. But it was just luck, coming out of school, I think I sat 3 exams, I didn’t even go to the others, I sat Chemistry, Maths and Physics. Because they had nothing to do with words, I think I would have done OK. But I know at the age of 16, I was a shit and refused to give them a stamp, to post out my results. I said, “They should send me the results, how dare they!” I think behind that I probably wasn’t going to do very well, I found it hard at school so I didn’t really want to know, but I didn’t let that hold me back.
Yeah, so the job was pretty good, it was great these machines even then they were sort of unknown. And so I went into training, first year was just learning to handle paper, lay edges, knocking up work, feeding and embossing.
When you say “lay edges” what does that mean?
So on our machines we have brass lays, even print machines will have a lay edge and its always marked by the lines going down the edge of the paper, so you lay into lays. You learnt about the terminology “work and turn, work and twist” all these things with the printing and the inks and going through that, so it was a pretty cold…first year was mind numbingly boring, but I was lucky they had so much work. The foiling machine was set up, so they put me on that and I was feeding things into it everyday, everyday, everyday. It didn’t take long to get the hand feeding, running inks, or to do multicoloured work, so I finished up my apprenticeship in 5 years.
So you finished a 7 year apprenticeship in 5 years?
Yeah so I did it in 5, kind of like a prodigy, like WOW! It’s like how great, any other industry I would have been a millionaire.
But yes that was fun, as soon as that finished there was a job going in Bermuda. And I just went for that, you think about it now as a big step but from my upbringing no one really travelled, it was very insular…working class. People use to say “oh well your brave”, and I’m like eh! Brave and stupid are pretty close! I’m just lucky and it was great. It taught me how to run the American machines, in the UK people only run one machine. You’ve got your machine and that’s all you run for your career. You did not go on to a different size, you did not go onto automatics, you stuck with what you knew.
The stage before all the guys would set the machines and women would run them. So in its heyday you would have 25 women all sitting in front of the machines feeding, and one guy would have 2 machines. But in that time if anything mechanical had to be done the mechanic would come in and fix it. So you really had set jobs, the ink person would come and set the ink. No one got the whole picture, you basically had an industry were suddenly guys who could run the machines couldn’t feed them and they didn’t know how to fix them. Hand engraving was probably the one that started to die off because they would not train anyone. For the first 2 years I did varnish ink then the whole industry swapped to water based ink. Even today the American companies that haven’t used varnish inks, find it hard to work with and I’ve been over there on consulting jobs been able to step in and show them what to do. It’s pretty amazing how knowledge gets lost.
Things just evaporate if someone doesn’t pass it on.
It’s scary! There is a picture of Fred Weight, from Weight and Saville and this guy Fred an apprentice, was given the task of getting these machines to print. And he did that in his first year and in 4 years made all of these machines. So he was just this brilliant guy, he had this massive moustache, slicked back Victorian look. Every time I think of giving up, I think of him and “oh! I’m going to let him down, I’ve gotta carry on or at least impart this knowledge on”. And the frustrating thing is, everyone goes “write a book”, but yeah great! Its like dyslexic! But I will do something; it will just be my view of the industry and how things are done.
It would be an interesting story.
It’s a different one, people in the industry say America would recognise things and would do things differently. But at the end of the day to get the whole picture in terms of been able to travel around with this job is very unusual.
Have you ever thought of taking on an apprentice?
Oh! We want too, the stages are to get the business up and running and then we want to put someone on, train them and while we are training them, get them to document every stage so they’ve got something they can recall back on. Its starting to build a knowledge base, videoing, you know just showing people that it isn’t hard.
I’ve had calls from the UK, people saying we’re having problems running this ink. And you explain over the phone, you think through a process. Start here, then do that, then do that, and that’s just cause you know it’s about troubleshooting. The machines are old, when it goes right everything is easy when it goes wrong that’s when you’ve got to be able to pull it apart and go start here.
And you’ve made so many mistakes
Yeah! Its amazing I’ve put spanners through the machines. I’ve put a spanner in the machine, its crunched and I’ve gone ‘oh! ooo’ thinking I’m in trouble”…the machine just carried on, I’ve just stopped the machine, the plate was actually forged with the name of the spanner…into the steel plate, that much pressure but its missed all the engraving. You put a washer through a Heildberg Press by accident, bang! Your cylinders gone, then you have to re-do it with the same engineering they do aeroplane wings with, re chroming, its ridiculous!
You were taking about an apprentice before, how would you go about finding someone?
I don’t want someone who has done printing. Especially because this is so basic, I think it would be strange and messy for them. Its messy its dirty its not clean pristine printing and its not computer orientated. It would suit someone that really isn’t going to set the world on fire as in with writing or something, but mechanically understands, has bit of art in them, they have that sort of touch. I have an artists’ way of thinking but don’t have artistry skills, I wish I could draw but I haven’t got any of that but you kind of take on the same feel for your work.
Its also a stamina thing, you stand at the machine, your minds got to be able to wander and think. Of the people I’ve trained, one of the big things is I want them to think of something I have never thought of. Bring a different way of thinking, normally people go ‘nup, you don’t do that’ but if you go hold on lets try it! Lets try chicken poo in the duct, hey! Have you got a chicken? Let’s do it! And I’ve found the biggest brake throughs have been that…
Chicken poo?
No, no, that’s a bad example! When people come through they’ve found things you haven’t seen cause you are always set in your way and you do believe what you are told, that’s one of the things. One of the big misconceptions was that inside there is a massive steel pad linked onto a bolt on to two springs. And I was always told you take it out of the top, take it out the top and this young apprentice goes ‘I’m sure you can just drag it through the front’. And there he goes, pulls it out through the front and probably saves 4 hours worth of work. And I’ve never tried it, and that’s your downfall, when you never try something, what have you got to loose. And that’s all you meet in the industry, people who are set in their ways, this is how it’s done, there’s no other way…it doesn’t help.
Its good to think that an old craft can still evolve and get better.
Yeah! I think the next break through will be ceramic plates which will be laser etched, they are trying to do that in America now. If they can do that it means you take away all the acid, the copper, the environmental issues, you literally computer to plate straight out.
Is that something you would potentially do, buy the ceramics and a laser machine?
Yeah, they would sell the whole kit, and you would look at it like once you have brought enough plates, well now I can justify buying that. Problems with it? People want to keep their copper plates, because it’s a beautiful thing, instead they get a crappy ceramic one, so your kind of losing a bit of beauty. But the biggest one is that people want things quickly. Yeah I really think you could make some breakthroughs with owning one in terms of a quick turnaround with designs. You don’t want to pay for research you want to pay for a product.
–
Stay tuned for Part 2, with more exciting tales involving Pumpkin Carriages and Royal Scandals. See Engraved Printing Co here
by Che Douglas and Kareen Clark
This is our first interview installment with David Hayes from the Engraved Printing Co. We will be bringing this interview to you in three parts, as there are far too many fascinating tales and slices of wisdom to leave anything out. We hope you enjoy, have a laugh and gain some insight into the art and history of engraved printing from the only qualified Engraved Printer in Australia.
If you would like to contribute or think you’re up for answering some questions, drop us a line hello@theprintdirectory.com.au
Why have you come out to Australia, and how long have you been doing Engraved Printing for?
Since I left school at the age of 16, went straight into the trade. Back then it was a rare trade so there was no formal college or nothing that you could go too and learn from. So I went in and signed up for a 7-year apprenticeship.
How did you find out about it?
Because I was dyslexic I was a pretty bad kid at school…not bad, I had a very strange sense of humour. I was meant to go for a careers interview and turned up a week late. They said, “There are two jobs going a Lab Technician, or a job at a Printing Factory”. And I went “my uncle is a printer, he is the richest guy in the family! I’ll go for the printing one”. My Dad was a Milkman, and the guy who interviewed me was a Milkman for 15 years before he became an Engraved Printer. So we just chatted, not about printing and I got the job.
Were they Milkmen in the same suburb?
No, even different companies and everything. But it was just luck, coming out of school, I think I sat 3 exams, I didn’t even go to the others, I sat Chemistry, Maths and Physics. Because they had nothing to do with words, I think I would have done OK. But I know at the age of 16, I was a shit and refused to give them a stamp, to post out my results. I said, “They should send me the results, how dare they!” I think behind that I probably wasn’t going to do very well, I found it hard at school so I didn’t really want to know, but I didn’t let that hold me back.
Yeah, so the job was pretty good, it was great these machines even then they were sort of unknown. And so I went into training, first year was just learning to handle paper, lay edges, knocking up work, feeding and embossing.
When you say “lay edges” what does that mean?
So on our machines we have brass lays, even print machines will have a lay edge and its always marked by the lines going down the edge of the paper, so you lay into lays. You learnt about the terminology “work and turn, work and twist” all these things with the printing and the inks and going through that, so it was a pretty cold…first year was mind numbingly boring, but I was lucky they had so much work. The foiling machine was set up, so they put me on that and I was feeding things into it everyday, everyday, everyday. It didn’t take long to get the hand feeding, running inks, or to do multicoloured work, so I finished up my apprenticeship in 5 years.
So you finished a 7 year apprenticeship in 5 years?
Yeah so I did it in 5, kind of like a prodigy, like WOW! It’s like how great, any other industry I would have been a millionaire.
But yes that was fun, as soon as that finished there was a job going in Bermuda. And I just went for that, you think about it now as a big step but from my upbringing no one really travelled, it was very insular…working class. People use to say “oh well your brave”, and I’m like eh! Brave and stupid are pretty close! I’m just lucky and it was great. It taught me how to run the American machines, in the UK people only run one machine. You’ve got your machine and that’s all you run for your career. You did not go on to a different size, you did not go onto automatics, you stuck with what you knew.
The stage before all the guys would set the machines and women would run them. So in its heyday you would have 25 women all sitting in front of the machines feeding, and one guy would have 2 machines. But in that time if anything mechanical had to be done the mechanic would come in and fix it. So you really had set jobs, the ink person would come and set the ink. No one got the whole picture, you basically had an industry were suddenly guys who could run the machines couldn’t feed them and they didn’t know how to fix them. Hand engraving was probably the one that started to die off because they would not train anyone. For the first 2 years I did varnish ink then the whole industry swapped to water based ink. Even today the American companies that haven’t used varnish inks, find it hard to work with and I’ve been over there on consulting jobs been able to step in and show them what to do. It’s pretty amazing how knowledge gets lost.
Things just evaporate if someone doesn’t pass it on.
It’s scary! There is a picture of Fred Weight, from Weight and Saville and this guy Fred an apprentice, was given the task of getting these machines to print. And he did that in his first year and in 4 years made all of these machines. So he was just this brilliant guy, he had this massive moustache, slicked back Victorian look. Every time I think of giving up, I think of him and “oh! I’m going to let him down, I’ve gotta carry on or at least impart this knowledge on”. And the frustrating thing is, everyone goes “write a book”, but yeah great! Its like dyslexic! But I will do something; it will just be my view of the industry and how things are done.
It would be an interesting story.
It’s a different one, people in the industry say America would recognise things and would do things differently. But at the end of the day to get the whole picture in terms of been able to travel around with this job is very unusual.
Have you ever thought of taking on an apprentice?
Oh! We want too, the stages are to get the business up and running and then we want to put someone on, train them and while we are training them, get them to document every stage so they’ve got something they can recall back on. Its starting to build a knowledge base, videoing, you know just showing people that it isn’t hard.
I’ve had calls from the UK, people saying we’re having problems running this ink. And you explain over the phone, you think through a process. Start here, then do that, then do that, and that’s just cause you know it’s about troubleshooting. The machines are old, when it goes right everything is easy when it goes wrong that’s when you’ve got to be able to pull it apart and go start here.
And you’ve made so many mistakes
Yeah! Its amazing I’ve put spanners through the machines. I’ve put a spanner in the machine, its crunched and I’ve gone ‘oh! ooo’ thinking I’m in trouble”…the machine just carried on, I’ve just stopped the machine, the plate was actually forged with the name of the spanner…into the steel plate, that much pressure but its missed all the engraving. You put a washer through a Heildberg Press by accident, bang! Your cylinders gone, then you have to re-do it with the same engineering they do aeroplane wings with, re chroming, its ridiculous!
You were taking about an apprentice before, how would you go about finding someone?
I don’t want someone who has done printing. Especially because this is so basic, I think it would be strange and messy for them. Its messy its dirty its not clean pristine printing and its not computer orientated. It would suit someone that really isn’t going to set the world on fire as in with writing or something, but mechanically understands, has bit of art in them, they have that sort of touch. I have an artists’ way of thinking but don’t have artistry skills, I wish I could draw but I haven’t got any of that but you kind of take on the same feel for your work.
Its also a stamina thing, you stand at the machine, your minds got to be able to wander and think. Of the people I’ve trained, one of the big things is I want them to think of something I have never thought of. Bring a different way of thinking, normally people go ‘nup, you don’t do that’ but if you go hold on lets try it! Lets try chicken poo in the duct, hey! Have you got a chicken? Let’s do it! And I’ve found the biggest brake throughs have been that…
Chicken poo?
No, no, that’s a bad example! When people come through they’ve found things you haven’t seen cause you are always set in your way and you do believe what you are told, that’s one of the things. One of the big misconceptions was that inside there is a massive steel pad linked onto a bolt on to two springs. And I was always told you take it out of the top, take it out the top and this young apprentice goes ‘I’m sure you can just drag it through the front’. And there he goes, pulls it out through the front and probably saves 4 hours worth of work. And I’ve never tried it, and that’s your downfall, when you never try something, what have you got to loose. And that’s all you meet in the industry, people who are set in their ways, this is how it’s done, there’s no other way…it doesn’t help.
Its good to think that an old craft can still evolve and get better.
Yeah! I think the next break through will be ceramic plates which will be laser etched, they are trying to do that in America now. If they can do that it means you take away all the acid, the copper, the environmental issues, you literally computer to plate straight out.
Is that something you would potentially do, buy the ceramics and a laser machine?
Yeah, they would sell the whole kit, and you would look at it like once you have brought enough plates, well now I can justify buying that. Problems with it? People want to keep their copper plates, because it’s a beautiful thing, instead they get a crappy ceramic one, so your kind of losing a bit of beauty. But the biggest one is that people want things quickly. Yeah I really think you could make some breakthroughs with owning one in terms of a quick turnaround with designs. You don’t want to pay for research you want to pay for a product.
–
Stay tuned for Part 2, with more exciting tales involving Pumpkin Carriages and Royal Scandals.
See Engraved Printing Co here